![]() That's been very clearly articulated by its leaders as well as Putin and his allies. The Wagner Group, I think it certainly has a political view about the people of Ukraine and the fact that Ukraine is not a state that doesn't have its own sovereignty and right to exist. And terrorist organisations sometimes have very clearly articulated ideology, which can be political in nature or religious or philosophical in nature. Senator Paterson That's a really good question. Hamish Macdonald If they're a terrorist organisation, what's their ideology? But a number of independent experts, including an academic from the Australian National University, quoted in the Sydney Morning Herald yesterday, said there are no impediments if the Government chooses to do so. And I've also said that if it's necessary to change the law to facilitate that listing, then the opposition would provide the government with bipartisan support to do so. ![]() ![]() And that's why I've asked the Government to seek advice from the Department of Home Affairs about whether or not Wagner can be listed. ![]() And really only the Department of Home Affairs and its agencies is capable of arriving at a conclusion about that. Senator Paterson Well, I haven't been briefed on that, Hamish. Hamish Macdonald But my question is, are there are there people in Australia doing that? What it would criminalise is people who are actively involved in supporting those organisations. Certainly there are supporters in Australia of Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine and this wouldn't criminalise people who have a political view about that, even though we might find their views reprehensible. We don't want Australians to think it's acceptable to recruit on their behalf or raise funds on their behalf. Senator Paterson It's not necessary to list a terrorist organisation for them to have a direct connection to Australia, and sometimes we list them as a preventative measure because we don't want Australians to think that it might be a good idea to travel overseas and join their cause. I mean, is there any indication that the Wagner Group might be getting funding from Australia? Is there any indication that they might be trying to recruit from Australia? Is there an actual connection? Hamish Macdonald I'm just trying to understand though, what the connection is with Australia beyond the clearly the morally abhorrent activities that they're pursuing in different parts of the world. But nonetheless we think it's important for us to take that stance and I think this is one that very comfortably sits in that category as well. For example, some of the Islamic State groups that have operated out of Africa are not likely or capable of producing terrorist activity in Australia. So, for example, it's been common in the past for Australia to list a number of terrorist groups around the world that don't present a direct threat to Australia or Australians, but nonetheless we find their activities reprehensible. This is an opportunity for Australia to state our values and often to stand in conjunction with our allies and say that we don't tolerate the activities and the conduct of the particular group. But there's also a moral component to it. It makes it unlawful to associate with them as an organisation or to raise funds on their behalf or recruit people on their behalf, for example. Senator Paterson There's really two reasons why we list terrorist organisations in Australia, Hamish. Hamish Macdonald One of the key reasons to list the group as a terrorist organisation is that they might pose a threat to Australia or Australians. Senator James Paterson Good morning, Hamish. But what difference would that actually make? Senator James Paterson is the Shadow Minister for Home Affairs and Cyber Security, and joins me now. And now there are calls from the opposition here in Australia to list them as a terrorist organization under Australian law alongside groups like ISIS and Hezbollah. The Wagner group has been accused of human rights abuses and atrocities in Russia's war. Hamish Macdonald To the private army of more than 50,000 and a key force in Russia's battle against Ukraine. ![]() Transcript Interview with Hamish Macdonald, ABC RN Breakfast Subjects: Listing of Wagner Group, IRGC, Voice to Parliament ![]()
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